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legerdemaine's dilemma

7 messages in this thread | Started on 2001-11-10

legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Bob Degen (legerdemaine@hotmail.com) | Date: 2001-11-10 20:20:31 UTC

legerdemaines dilemma

     To be honest, Ive never fully understood the nuances of involved in the F/P/X count.  Up until this time, it has been nothing more than a curiosity to me, since for the most part, accounting for these is rather obvious, or at least intuitive.  Today, I had a situation come up in which it most definitely was not.   Id like some help in sorting this out, as it seems that keeping an accurate tally of these statistics is an essential part of letterboxing.

     I found a box that some critter or another had broken into. The stamp had been chewed on pretty hard. If fact, it was mauled so badly that I was indisposed to record it in my journal.  I keep a neat journal.  I really enjoy leafing through it and looking at those colorful images, again and again.  I couldnt bring myself to include such an ugly, defaced image in my journal.  I can just imagine others leafing through it and having that jump out at them. Whats that?   I  hear the words, and I shudder.  I could not bring myself to include it.  But I found that box and I want credit for it.  So what should I do?

But wait, theres more

     Further complicating this is that fact that it was one of my boxes. Now, I know what youre thinking: You cant take an F  for something you planted.  Yes, intuitive and obvious.  But there are extenuating circumstances. The box was nowhere near where I had planted it.  The critter had dragged the thing quite a distance before discarding it.  Had it not been for the assistance of Dick Hill, I never would have found it.  Dick is a local fireman, and happened to stop nearby to check the dry hydrant. That old Indian pointed out the trail the critter had taken through the woods.  We followed it through an area that was pretty marshy, and found the thing wedged up under the roots of a tall pine, near where a brook ran into a salt pond. I couldnt have done a better job of hiding it myself.

Here is my case for claiming it as an F:

1) I figure that when the critter absconded with it, it was in fact, gone. For purposes of argument, I contend that it was no longer my box, but the critters.

2) The critter hid the box.

3) The critter left clues that could be followed to the box. (So cryptic, in fact, that I needed help from an Indian tracker to find it).

4) The critter effectively replaced the stamp with one of its own making.  Lest you scoff at this, I cite many instances from ancient cultures (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Etruscans, Sumerians, Assyrians, Phoenicians) in which materials (including facades with engraved images and writing) were recycled and written over by subsequent generations or cultures.

Therefore, I believe this is a legitimate find, and in fact, the first non-human made and placed letterbox. (Which, you may think, is reason enough to include the image in my journal, but I digress)

Furthermore,

What do I do with the box? There was no point in leaving it for the rest of you to find, as the clue is ephemeral, and would have gotten harder to follow every day (even for old Indian trackers).  So, I took it, and am thinking of putting it back, somewhere near the original, but more in a critter-proof spot.  I could leave the stamp, even though it is butt-ugly.  New place, new stamp (at least, not the one I originally put in it).  Id like to take another P for it.  May I?  If the consensus is no, then what incentive do I have to replace the thing?

Finally,

     This is the first box that Ive lost.  As anyone else who has lost one can attest, it is a rather traumatic experience.  These things are like children all that love poured into them, proudly watching their progress and then, to suddenly have them snatched away it isnt something that you can fully appreciate until it happens to you.  Id like to suggest that we include another statistic in our tallies: M (missing). It would mean a lot to those of us who have suffered the loss of one of our beloved.  It would be a way for us to keep alive the memory of those lost.

     So, I am looking for a ruling on this. Since we have no official judiciary to sort through these abstract cases and make determinations, I am willing to accept the consensus of the community at large.  May I add an F, P, and M to my tallies?

Waiting with baited breath,

legerdemaine



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Re: [LbNA] legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Kimberly Mako (MartianShark@msn.com) | Date: 2001-11-10 16:23:18 UTC-05:00
 
 

legerdemaine’s dilemma

     To be honest, I’ve never fully understood the nuances of involved in the F/P/X count.  Up until this time, it has been nothing more than a curiosity to me, since for the most part, accounting for these is rather obvious, or at least intuitive.  Today, I had a situation come up in which it most definitely was not.   I’d like some help in sorting this out, as it seems that keeping an accurate tally of these statistics is an essential part of letterboxing.

     I found a box that some critter or another had broken into. The stamp had been chewed on pretty hard. If fact, it was mauled so badly that I was indisposed to record it in my journal.  I keep a neat journal.  I really enjoy leafing through it and looking at those colorful images, again and again.  I couldn’t bring myself to include such an ugly, defaced image in my journal.  I can just imagine others leafing through it and having that jump out at them. “What’s that?”   I  hear the words, and I shudder.  I could not bring myself to include it.  But I found that box and I want credit for it.  So what should I do?

I personally would have stamped in, because every time I looked at that image I would have memories regarding the find, regardless of my own interpretation of its aesthetic value.

But wait, there’s more…

     Further complicating this is that fact that it was one of my boxes.

1) I figure that when the critter absconded with it, it was in fact, gone. For purposes of argument, I contend that it was no longer my box, but the critter’s.

2) The critter hid the box.  No it didn't, you did.  It's not like it posted clues on the website, or that you just happened to be in the right park that it hid its box in.  It stole your box, you didn't find its.  This has happened to others before.

3) The critter left clues that could be followed to the box. (So cryptic, in fact, that I needed help from an Indian tracker to find it).  So it was thinking, "hey, in case whoever left this tupperware here wants it back, let me drag it along and leave a trail so they can follow?

 

Therefore, I believe this is a legitimate find, and in fact, the first non-human made and placed letterbox. (Which, you may think, is reason enough to include the image in my journal, but I digress…)

Furthermore,

What do I do with the box? There was no point in leaving it for the rest of you to find, as the clue is ephemeral, and would have gotten harder to follow every day (even for old Indian trackers).  So, I took it, and am thinking of putting it back, somewhere near the original, but more in a critter-proof spot.  I could leave the stamp, even though it is butt-ugly.  New place, new stamp (at least, not the one I originally put in it).  I’d like to take another P for it.  May I?  If the consensus is no, then what incentive do I have to replace the thing?

Incentive? How about giving others the joy of experiencing a wonderful place? It's a selfless incentive, I know, but it still works.  People always say when they don't find the box, that it was still worth it to go because it was a beautiful area.

Finally,

     This is the first box that I’ve lost.  As anyone else who has lost one can attest, it is a rather traumatic experience.  These things are like children… all that love poured into them, proudly watching their progress… and then, to suddenly have them snatched away… it isn’t something that you can fully appreciate until it happens to you.  I’d like to suggest that we include another statistic in our tallies: M (missing). It would mean a lot to those of us who have suffered the loss of one of our beloved.  It would be a way for us to keep alive the memory of those lost.

I simply keep an image of all my boxes before I hide them, so if they are stolen I remember what they looked like.  So if it's missing, you will take it out of your P column and add it to your M column? What if it is recovered?

     So, I am looking for a ruling on this. Since we have no official judiciary to sort through these abstract cases and make determinations, I am willing to accept the consensus of the community at large.  May I add an F, P, and M to my tallies?

You can always do as you wish, there are no concrete rules.  But IMHO, I'd say no to the F, no to another P, and no M tally.  Just my two cents.

Kimberly in NJ

Re: [LbNA] legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) | Date: 2001-11-10 20:40:31 UTC-04:00

FWIW, there are suggested guidelines on the FAQ for these numbers.
Since everything is on the honor system anyway, its up to your
judgement, however.

In this case, I would say no, because if the critter were a
human, I think we would say no (and I don't think we can rule
out the critter being a human -- furthermore, the species of
the critter seems irrelevant).

Taking this example to an extreme -- if I find a box planted
by you, remove it to a park bench to examine its contents,
accidently spill beer on the stamp, which slightly pits it a
bit, then put it in a location about a millimeter away from where
I found it, scraping the dirt a bit to indicate my replacement, I
am now the critter, but we prolly say no. I don't think your
case comes close to crossing the line of judgement to
turn a no into a yes, either.

Just MHO.

BTW, if you want to count M's, go ahead. I think people count
what they want to -- as you said, nothing is official ...

Cheers
Randy

Re: legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Drew Family (drewclan@aol.com) | Date: 2001-11-11 23:11:08 UTC
Oh, hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! You've truly got me "rolling on the
floor laughing out loud." And to think folks say Mainiacs have a
droll sense of humor!

We've "lost" over 50 letterboxes now, and replaced 24 of them. We've
abandoned 6, and hope someday to repair the others. So you're right,
counting an "M" would be reasonable.

I'll never forget the first time we "found" one of our own
letterboxes, a hitchhiker. It was a joy, and I was sorely tempted to
count it "F."

But I think your story of tracking the critter's box places it in
another realm entirely, and that it should recieve special
dispensation from the letterboxing gods as an "F." There is no doubt
that you "found" it!

Now, I'd like to hear more about this Indian Firefighter of yours...

Jay


Re: legerdemaine's dilemma

From: (funhog@pacifier.com) | Date: 2001-11-12 02:28:53 UTC
--- In letterbox-usa@y..., "Bob Degen" wrote:

I'm all for counting that lost and found box as an F, with conditions.
If and only if you stamp that critter's creation into your logbook.
That poor thing went to alot of trouble to find a creative hiding
place, leave clues AND to produce a lovely piece of art. How uncool of
you to be judgemental about alternative art forms! I'm sure that sneaky
little possibly-rodent-like being did his very best and probably finds
it quite lovely. Stamp it in, you art snob...Happy Trails, Funhog



Re: legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Mark S. Fitton (mfitton@snet.net) | Date: 2001-11-12 20:33:54 UTC-05:00
A better understanding of sarcasm may be in order here. Although, I could
be wrong :-)


Mark
of the 4-hearted Fittons


RE:RE: legerdemaine's dilemma

From: Bob Degen (legerdemaine@hotmail.com) | Date: 2001-11-14 01:56:16 UTC

I really dont appreciate the impertinent heckling from the Gauche Coast. Your remarks are an affront to those of us who take this SERIOUSLY. So far as the charge of art snob goes, I can put it to rest right now. The two stamps I have in my book are early Coochs, which, if youve seenm, are easily mistaken for critter carved at first glance.

legerdemaine P27/F2/X0/M0/R1 or something like that



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